tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post1468275676702303245..comments2023-09-19T02:57:47.602-05:00Comments on lynnehybels.com: Evangelicals and Gender Equalitylynne hybelshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17770393832000915864noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-63889704841320985102013-12-02T01:15:03.150-06:002013-12-02T01:15:03.150-06:00This is a remarkable chapter - honest, insightful,...This is a remarkable chapter - honest, insightful, encouraging and real. I took a similar journey to Lynne's, ending up in seminary at age 44 and in my first paid pastoral position at age 52. I am stunned and sadden to see so much negative talk about women in leadership as I have entered into the blogging world in retirement. This beautiful post speaks powerfully to the truths that Bilezikian and your staff worked so hard to discern. Thank you, thank you.dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991172981000479793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-35385688160284998542013-12-01T14:25:35.212-06:002013-12-01T14:25:35.212-06:00The problem with that argument is that a lot of re...The problem with that argument is that a lot of research, scholarship, thought and prayer has been put into the matter of how to understand the bible's teachings on gender roles. Early on, Willow Creek commissioned a deep study, lasting 18 months and involving significant resources into looking into the issue. Their scholarship as well as the scholarship by many, many others - including many Evangelicals - has been available for a couple of decades now. There is no way for a person to credibly claim that gendered roles is just being faithful to scripture without addressing the critiques of the old way of doing things. Which is what supporters of the status quo cannot and will not do. At some point, they always revert to "what the bible says", as if the other side was unaware of what the bible says. <br /><br />The problem with the argument that religious roles reflect some wisdom of God's is that the claim is quite easy to disprove. The placing of men over women has been practiced by nearly all religions and all cultures for as long back in time as we can trace. Dynamics in remaining tribal peoples show that this practice probably dates back to before the beginning of what we call civilization. By definition, placing women under men is a human practice. The way that people do things. But in scripture, God says, "as high as the heavens are above the earth, so our my ways above the ways of men." God's ways are not only better than the ways of man. They are actually the opposite of how men do things. <br /><br />Really, what are the odds that the one thing which nearly all humans through out human history and across culture and religion agreed on is right? Out of everything people get wrong, this is the one thing everyone got right - that men should be over women? Really? <br /><br />The truth is that patriarchy is as common as dirt among human beings. And yet, there was this man 2000 years ago whose life and teachings started undermining this humanity wide consensus that men should be over women. It wasn't something he ever addressed directly. But there was this one line - "neither male or female, but all one in Christ Jesus." And a few women whose names got recorded because of their involvement in promoting and living out "The Way". And that was all it took.<br /><br />Do you really think it's a coincidence that the places where women first gained (mostly) full freedom and equality are the places where Christianity has the deepest roots? The equality of women isn't an attack on Christianity from without. It's an attack on the ways of men that was planted for us 2000 years ago coming to fruition. Without Christianity, there is no feminism. I personally think it demonstrates to the world the true power of Christ to see what his entry into the flow of human history has wrought. The one thing that all humanity could agree on. The thing which demonstrated the way of man more than anything else. That one thing - the idea that men should be over women - is all but dead in the parts of the world where worship of him took root. Do you really think it's all a coincidence? Do you really think that the one thing all mankind has agreed on happens to be the one thing we've gotten right? Despite the bad fruit it has always created? <br /><br />So, because you can find verses which can be read as affirming that placing men over women is the one thing which humans have all done which is actually pleasing to God, and then willfully ignoring the reams of scholarship your brothers and sisters in Christ have produced regarding scripture, you then want to declare yourself the faithful, biblical one because you are just being faithful to God. That doesn't look faithful. It does<br /><br />Rebecca Trotterhttp://www.theupsidedownworld.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-39546660799962484722013-12-01T14:15:44.508-06:002013-12-01T14:15:44.508-06:00"... we had hired some male staff members who..."... we had hired some male staff members who claimed they were willing to honor women in leadership, but in daily practice they subtly used their influence to denigrate women in leadership positions."<br /><br />That's exactly what I encountered in a church where I was the sole female elder for 2.5 years--male elders serving beside me who quietly (and not so quietly) denigrated and disrespected me. I ultimately ended up leaving that church. Unfortunately, there were not male counterparts who were willing to stick up for me or at the very least, chastise the men with the issue. Pat Popehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00816630368283863195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-50448152166444401522013-11-28T23:59:35.112-06:002013-11-28T23:59:35.112-06:00Lynne and Bill wrote a very moving article. Howev...Lynne and Bill wrote a very moving article. However, I was very sad that they never gave the feminist movement any credit for saving their marriage. Evangelicals often think feminism is evil, but the truth is that it is often very healing. Without feminism (in both its Christian and secular forms), Lynn and Bill would have continued to be miserable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-6716887163425960152013-11-27T10:54:28.997-06:002013-11-27T10:54:28.997-06:00Having worked at two different churches, I'm s...Having worked at two different churches, I'm sad to say I'm well-acquainted with the dynamics described here. I experienced no small amount of frustration and self-doubt as a result of my work with the church. I have found my place on a college faculty (which, interestingly, seems much more welcoming to women with a bent for leadership). But I continue to believe that evangelicals can change, and I am hopeful that we will continue to do so. <br />The ideas in this post connect (of course) with Nancy Beach's discussion of women in ministry. Her book was deeply encouraging to me, as is much of what you have to say here.<br /><br />http://shadowwonder.blogspot.com/2011/11/not-afraid-to-be-thankful.htmlAnne Lowry Pharrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08936439860287586309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-15250979181835865782013-11-27T10:51:28.513-06:002013-11-27T10:51:28.513-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anne Lowry Pharrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08936439860287586309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-42477378922935062182013-11-25T14:08:21.341-06:002013-11-25T14:08:21.341-06:00"If you don't agree with one part of the ..."If you don't agree with one part of the Bible, you reject all of it." That's rubbish. Wilderness Wonderingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01586339773351874646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-49264307351113747372013-11-25T10:15:54.391-06:002013-11-25T10:15:54.391-06:00Exactly! Saying "Both men and women were resp...Exactly! Saying "Both men and women were responsible to fulfill their ministries of service for God’s glory in the manner God had gifted them and to the degree to which they had been apportioned faith." does not mean that there are no differences in roles between women and men. Pointing to great women in the Bible also does not mean that women are to lead men. Women are wonderful and are to be used in ministry. The main thing is that the Apostle Paul says they are not to exercise authority over or to teach men. If you don't agree with one part of the Bible, you reject all of it.<br /><br />Liberal Christians are pointing to society to justify their points. Shouldn't we as Christians look to the WORD OF GOD first? North American Christians (me included) do not treasure this gift enough.Catohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02570103381142638132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-25425401168825521032013-11-23T07:45:27.171-06:002013-11-23T07:45:27.171-06:00Thank you for your honesty and encouragement in sh...Thank you for your honesty and encouragement in sharing your journey in this. My husband and I, and our church, are on a similar journey in this, but we still have a long way to travel. I enjoy writing and have just started writing about our journey, and some of its highs and lows, in a blog - http://garetkeyongod.wordpress.com/<br /><br />Thanks again<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-69335376746361785782013-11-23T06:02:52.977-06:002013-11-23T06:02:52.977-06:00This chapter impacted me when I read the book. I ...This chapter impacted me when I read the book. I read it in the months prior to my ordination in the Wesleyan Church. Thank you for sharing your story. I'm inspired! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14521626026238786320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-1229837077551979362013-11-22T14:59:20.266-06:002013-11-22T14:59:20.266-06:00Lynne (and Bill) -
The national influence of Wil...Lynne (and Bill) - <br /><br />The national influence of Willow Creek on this issue has had a profound impact on my life. I am fortunate to serve alongside a Senior Pastor who opens the doors to service for the best-equipped, right people for the right season - as God sends them whether male or female. The culture at our growing church is healthy and functional, based on trust and mutual respect that cuts across every ministry effort. It allows us to serve with freedom and passion, and it allows Jesus to be glorified. Serving in such an atmosphere of trust and respect has helped me submit my life more fully to Christ, and the mutual submission on our team has impacted countless families (including my own). <br /><br />I'm so grateful for your commitment to working through the messy stuff, and VERY thankful for this post. It's not always easy to enter the fray of conflict, but your words here are needed.<br /><br />Many thanks to you and Bill for working it out with fear and trembling. Thanks for sharing the raw beauty of your journey with such vulnerability. Your words matter. <br /><br />all the best - Beth Stoddardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11594837629057394878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-49384731270510140202013-11-21T14:34:11.061-06:002013-11-21T14:34:11.061-06:00I think what you have written here is amazing and ...I think what you have written here is amazing and I agree with you wholeheartedly.<br /><br />Rev. Stanley M. Horton Th.d Professor Emeritus Assemblies of God Theological SeminaryDr Stanley M Hortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09470518304654974544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-14481619612008440752013-11-20T08:38:40.659-06:002013-11-20T08:38:40.659-06:00Bill and Lynne thanks for sharing your conviction ...Bill and Lynne thanks for sharing your conviction and experience on this subject. I sense the Holy Spirit is urging áll hands on deck for the coming Kingdom! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06591473593365929442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-68325166396754928372013-11-20T08:28:24.478-06:002013-11-20T08:28:24.478-06:00Lynne, thank you so much for replying! I'll c...Lynne, thank you so much for replying! I'll check out the book and the resource page. And thanks again for sharing your experience. I so appreciate that. Cindy Finleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00177144895505029184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-59102404744758102502013-11-20T07:51:56.855-06:002013-11-20T07:51:56.855-06:00Hi Cindy. You could start with Gilbert Bilezikian&...Hi Cindy. You could start with Gilbert Bilezikian's book, Beyond Sex Roles. Also check the resource page on the website for the Christians for Biblical Equality. Lynnenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-36394136932793896202013-11-20T04:45:27.105-06:002013-11-20T04:45:27.105-06:00Lynne and Bill, thank you so much for this. I beli...Lynne and Bill, thank you so much for this. I believe that so many women gifted in areas of teaching, preaching, leadership, etc. have to take their marbles and go play some place else because the church just doesn't know what to do with them. Business leader - fine. Non-profit leader fine. Para-church leader - fine. But not in the church. I believe all of this and still, I am looking for a book that addresses the issue from a robust theological perspective. I appreciate your reference to God's intent in creation and the reality that we are one day going to see the complete reverse of the curse. If the "not yet" has broken through, shouldn't we work to advance God's Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven? Any suggestions for a book that address the theological issues more deeply? Thanks so much!Cindy Finleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00177144895505029184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-75049722261913170502013-11-19T23:49:45.542-06:002013-11-19T23:49:45.542-06:00Thank you for your words, both of you. This was so...Thank you for your words, both of you. This was so encouraging to me. I loved how you shared that when you are a mother, using your gifts and serving in those gifts does not make you less of a wife or mother - in fact, it can make you more of one as you find joy in serving. I want to share this with everyone I know!Jaimiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15280026947144417692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-78248819375071430872013-11-19T11:11:55.602-06:002013-11-19T11:11:55.602-06:00Women do have a powerful role to play in the churc...Women do have a powerful role to play in the church, but there is also structure in the Church that God has set up. Unfortunately, the modern feminist movement and society in general has crept into the Church and many in it are adopting the world's practices. That's why homosexuality is starting to be allowed in the Church. Let's get Biblical or up with the times. Can't have it both ways.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-64952868894017791652013-11-19T09:42:29.548-06:002013-11-19T09:42:29.548-06:00It's kind of a long story how I made my way ov...It's kind of a long story how I made my way over here, but I'm so glad I did. I'm a military wife with young kids, navigating some of these very issues. Thank you so much for sharing this!Skerribhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05707156860853749119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-24570868326082362762013-11-19T06:06:16.037-06:002013-11-19T06:06:16.037-06:00I have the book this comes from, but never got aro...I have the book this comes from, but never got around to reading it until now. Powerful testimony! I'm looking forward to sharing this with my Wheaton students.Brian Howellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02043527652997919446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-60672442553438676802013-11-18T20:31:20.086-06:002013-11-18T20:31:20.086-06:00Lynne and Bill: Well done. Thank you for your lead...Lynne and Bill: Well done. Thank you for your leadership and vulnerability.christinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03105351874089529290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-64642678477335792602013-11-18T20:11:27.363-06:002013-11-18T20:11:27.363-06:00Lynne and Bill
Thank you for this. I've been a...Lynne and Bill<br />Thank you for this. I've been at Willow for nearly 30 years, and I'm so thankful for the position we hold on this issue. My daughter has grown up believing it's "normal" to use her leadership gifts. I've had so many opportunities to use mine. Lynne, it's amazing to see the ways that, as you've unleashed your true gifts, you are changing the world! Thank you both for your faithful ministry! Keri Wyatt Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449147844560441917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-34350677317416843892013-11-18T19:50:37.708-06:002013-11-18T19:50:37.708-06:00Sarah is right, you have give Christian women an i...Sarah is right, you have give Christian women an incredible gift here. THANK YOU!KMhttps://twitter.com/KellieMizenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8423916276727264510.post-28785197817957050642013-11-18T17:37:06.476-06:002013-11-18T17:37:06.476-06:00Wow, thank you both so much for this incredible gi...Wow, thank you both so much for this incredible gift. How amazing to have your perspectives outlined so clearly here, I have learnt so much and feel so inspired. May God continue to lead and bless your ministries in the years to come! Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13754230002877581528noreply@blogger.com